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 Controversy: Who really is to blame?

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Lod
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PostSubject: Controversy: Who really is to blame?   Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:20 am

Below are several incidents speculated to be related to video games in recent decades have helped fuel controversy.
But who really is at fault. I leave it for you to decide.

* On April 20, 1999, 18-year-old Eric Harris and 17-year-old Dylan Klebold killed 12 students and a teacher in the Columbine High School massacre. The two were allegedly obsessed with the video game Doom. Harris also created WADs for the game, and created a large mod named "Tier" which he called his "life's work". Contrary to certain rumors, however, neither student had made a Doom level mimicking the school's layout, and there is no evidence the pair practiced the massacre in Doom.

* In April 2000, 16-year-old Spanish teenager José Rabadán Pardo murdered his father, mother and his sister with a katana, proclaiming that he was on an "avenging mission" by Squall Leonhart, a character in the video game Final Fantasy VIII.

* In November 2001, 21-year-old American Shawn Woolley committed suicide after what his mother claimed was an addiction to EverQuest. Woolley's mother stated, "I think the way the game is written is that when you first start playing it, it is fun, and you make great accomplishments. And then the further you get into it, the higher level you get, the longer you have to stay on it to move onward, and then it isn't fun anymore. But by then you're addicted, and you can't leave it."

* In February 2003, 16-year-old American Dustin Lynch was charged with aggravated murder and made an insanity defense that he was "obsessed" with Grand Theft Auto III. Long time video game opponent and former attorney Jack Thompson encouraged the father of victim JoLynn Mishne to pass a note to the judge that said "the attorneys had better tell the jury about the violent video game that trained this kid and showed him how to kill our daughter, JoLynn. If they don't, I will." Lynch later retracted his insanity plea, and his mother Jerrilyn Thomas commented, "It has nothing to do with video games or Paxil, and my son's no murderer."

* On June 7, 2003, 18-year-old American Devin Moore shot and killed two policemen and a dispatcher after grabbing one of the officers' weapons following an arrest for the possession of a stolen vehicle. At trial, the defense claimed that Moore had been inspired by the video game Grand Theft Auto: Vice City.

* On June 25, 2003, two American step brothers, Joshua and William Buckner, aged 14 and 16, respectively, used a rifle to fire at vehicles on Interstate 40 in Tennessee, killing a 45-year-old man and wounding a 19-year-old woman. The two shooters told investigators they had been inspired by Grand Theft Auto III.

* On February 27, 2004 in Leicester, UK, 17-year-old Warren Leblanc lured 14-year-old Stefan Pakeerah into a park and murdered him by stabbing him repeatedly with a claw hammer and knife. Leblanc was reportedly obsessed with Manhunt, although investigation quickly revealed that the killer did not even own a copy of the game. The victim's mother Giselle Pakeerah has been campaigning against violent video games in the UK ever since. The police investigating the case have dismissed any link, as discussed in the relevant articles.

* In October 2004, a 41-year-old Chinese man named Qiu Chengwei stabbed 26-year-old Zhu Caoyuan to death over a dispute regarding the sale of a virtual weapon the two had jointly won in the game The Legend of Mir 3.

* On December 27, 2004, 13-year-old Xiao Yi committed suicide by jumping from a twenty-four story building in Tianjin, China, as a result of the effects of his addiction, hoping to be "reunited" with his fellow gamers in the afterlife, according to his suicide notes. Prior to his death, he had spent 36 consecutive hours playing Warcraft III.

* In August 2005, 28-year-old South Korean Lee Seung Seop died after playing StarCraft for 50 hours straight.

* Controversy of speeding and evading the authority in racing games surfaced when a copy of Need for Speed: Most Wanted was found on one of the street racers' car in Toronto in January 19, 2006, when two 18-year-olds, Alexander Ryazanov and Wang-Piao Dumani Rossracers, were involved in an accident resulting the death of taxi-driver Tahir Khan. Nevertheless, the police did not find any connection between the game and the incident.

* In September 2007, a Chinese man in Guangzhou, China, died after playing Internet video games for three consecutive days in an Internet cafe.

* In September 2007 in Ohio, 16-year-old Daniel Petric snuck out of his bedroom window to purchase the game Halo 3 against the orders of his father, a minister at New Life Assembly of God in Wellington, Ohio, U.S. His parents eventually banned him from the game after he spent up to 18 hours a day with it, and secured it in a lockbox in a closet where the father also kept a 9mm handgun, according to prosecutors. In October 2007, Daniel used his father's key to open the lockbox and remove the gun and the game. He then entered the living room of his house and shot both of them in the head, killing his mother and wounding his father. Petric is sentenced to life in prison without parole, which was later commuted to 23 years in imprisonment. While defense attorneys argued that Petric was influenced by video game addiction, the court fully dismissed these claims.

* In December 2007, a Russian man was beaten to death over an argument in the MMORPG Lineage II. The man was killed when his guild and a rival one challenged each other to a real-life brawl.

* False reports initially claimed that Seung-Hui Cho, the killer in the 2007 Virginia Tech massacre was an avid Counter-Strike player. However, police reports said that roommates of Cho had never seen him play any video games. Despite these discoveries, disbarred attorney Jack Thompson continued to erroneously claim that video games were to blame.

* In June 2008, four teens allegedly obsessed with Grand Theft Auto IV went on a crime spree after being in New Hyde Park, New York. They first robbed a man, knocking his teeth out and then they stopped a woman driving a black BMW and stole her car and her cigarettes.

* On August 2, 2008, Polwat Chinno, a 19-year-old Thai teenager, stabbed a Bangkok taxi driver to death during an attempt to steal the driver's cab in order to obtain money to buy a copy of Grand Theft Auto IV. A police official said that the teen was trying to copy a similar act in the game. As a consequence, officials ordered the banning of the series, which led its distributor, New Era Interactive Media, to withdraw it, including the aforementioned, then-upcoming installment, from shops across Thailand.

* On October 13, 2008, 15-year-old Brandon Crisp from Barrie, Ontario, Canada ran away from home on his mountain bike after his parents confiscated his Xbox 360 following an argument regarding the time he spent playing Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare. His body, which had fallen from a tree, was found on November 5, 2008 by some local hunters.

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PostSubject: Re: Controversy: Who really is to blame?   Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:36 am

People will always use violent video games as a crutch for their actions. It's not the games fault that they are mentally insane and such.
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PostSubject: Re: Controversy: Who really is to blame?   Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:48 am

RatchetH22 wrote:
People will always use violent video games as a crutch for their actions. It's not the games fault that they are mentally insane and such.

Yeah, linking video games to murders is totally stupid because there are more murders due to other causes than there are due to video games, these people are just insane and needed help, there were probably signs of this way before the problem got to the point of murder and suicide
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PostSubject: Re: Controversy: Who really is to blame?   Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:30 am

There is another, more obvious link to all these incidents... All the perpetrators, without exception, were breathing in large quantities of oxygen! Shocked affraid No Shocked affraid No Shocked affraid No

Oxygen turns you into murderers! We must stop the oxygen! * Holds breath... Goes back to playing GTA4 * Guns firing
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PostSubject: Re: Controversy: Who really is to blame?   Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:33 am

That's 18 incidents in over a 10 year period. Meanwhile Billions of people a day are playing across the world and they aren't killing or committing crimes. If you can't seperate video games from reality, then we already know you have a problem right there.
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Lod
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PostSubject: Re: Controversy: Who really is to blame?   Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:46 am

Now here is the real Kicker.

Quote :
RapeLay is a 3D eroge video game made by Illusion, released on April 21, 2006 in Japan. Compared to Illusion's previous games, the main story is shorter, it features an improved 3D engine, and is mainly played through mouse control. The game centers on a male character who stalks and rapes a mother and her two daughters. Three years after its initial release, the game has garnered international attention and controversy for its content.

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Articles of defence have also been written, many noting that rape is a lesser crime compared to murder, yet there are thousands of legal video games in which the goal is to kill enemies.

Thoughts.

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PostSubject: Re: Controversy: Who really is to blame?   Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:35 am

Thoughts, as a lifelong gamers, 15 of my 19 years have been spent with some form of console in my possession, typically on the more violent end of the scale, 007 Games, Grand Theft Autos, Call Of Duty, Resistance, Medal of Honor and so on.

The amount of fictional bloodshed I have committed, probably warrants me the title of Digital Death. I am currently suffering from a mental health issue and I will not lie, the urge for violence does get quite severe. I have access to weaponry that could as the owner puts it, "turn a deer's skull inside out".

Ask me, is Insom going to go out and kill myself or someone else because I am influenced by Bond, Vercetti, Johnson, Bellic, MacTavish, Nukem, Sephiroth, Hale, Snake and so on?

Am I hell......why? Because I know the difference between a corpse on a screen and actually bringing someone's life to an end, any of the guys I kill in that Fantasy world can be brought back at the next respawn, the next playthrough. If I were to go out and kill someone, I am taking away a life, I am taking away a human being, a son or daughter, brother or sister, aunt, uncle, mother, father, friend. And for every day of my life thereafter it would haunt me.

I am a troubled individual, and without a doubt have an extreme desensitisation towards graphic and fatal violence. But no one is going to mourn the guy I stabbed to get my AC 130.

I could batter the old clichés of the parents need to watch their children better and so on so forth, bullshit, whether a child games or collects butterflies and postage stamps they should be instructed of the sanctity and fragility of the countless lives around them.

All the perpatrators of the crimes listed above are male. For the most part they have no social interaction outside of the games. So yes you could say they were addicted. But, so are many of the people that are going to read this very post, and we are not going to kill another human in cold blood, because we have been instilled with values and morals, both by our families and experiences.

As leo puts it, all the killers were taking vast amounts of Oxygen in the lead up to their actions, maybe if they'd went outside for a walk to get some Oxygen not contaminated by the three days of same socks, underwear and microwaved noodles, none of this discussion would even exist.

The influence is fairly insignificant when you consider the fact that it doesn't matter if these people were trying to get revenge for Bambi's mother, they bloody well killed someone, if you want to prevent murders.......prevent births, end the human race completely because as long as man remains on this planet, we will continue to senselessly kill, rape and steal.

Video Games are a drop in the ocean of blood out there.

As for the rape game, how disgusting do you actually have to be to defend violating another person. We all have rights, and where video game violence may be a substitute for me driving and hour and a half to kick the head off of Liam face to face, digitally raping someone?

I can assume those who are able operate a computer game are in possession of two hands, so if you're thinking about raping some fictional woman and her daughters, why not actually live up to the title of wanker that you have so clearly earned. Hell, if you want you can even stick some cotton wool to the tweezers for a soft warm 6 second joyride.

Insom has said enough, most of it probably irrelevant, but that's what a rant is, anyone got a problem, I'll turn you into an alien with a swarm of beetles from a cruise missile.
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PostSubject: Re: Controversy: Who really is to blame?   Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:38 am

In responce to the first quote:
In any form of media, there will be extremes of content. In music, which has graced us the works of Sinatra, AC/DC, and countless other greats, there are guys who will sing about their fantasies of mass murder in the form of rap, and country singers who write albums worth of songs about how great hitler was. Disagree with their content? Fine. What to ban them? Go ahead, I won't stop you. But don't go grouping John Lennon and Bob Dylan with them. In video, you have great works of art like Fritz Langs "M", and more entertaining movies like "Avatar"; you can't condemn those because of snuff films and fetish pornos. Its the same with videogames. Hanging Mario and those that play games for being "mentally disturbed digenerates prone to violence", because of a single game like "RapeLay" and a few isolated incedents of violence by gamers is patently irresponsible.

In responce to the second quote:
Saying that rape is less of a crime than murder is like saying that Kilamanjaro is less of a mountain because Everest is taller. Both mountains are still tall, and both crimes are still egregious.
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Lod
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PostSubject: Re: Controversy: Who really is to blame?   Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:47 am

Would this mean that the developer would have to take some measure of responsibility for offences caused, or should we for viewing and interacting with the content wheter they are Shooter, Platform or Erogue if the basis of the game is on the cover?

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You don't say much do you? :3" - vengeance7times

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Fuxkjb touch screeb ketboards." - iRideAPalmer


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PostSubject: Re: Controversy: Who really is to blame?   Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:02 am

For a game such as RapeLay the developer should definitely be held responsible for producing and distributing such tasteless and utterly disgusting material.

For other games, the consumer should be able to use their own descretion and deceptively-named common sense to realise that some or all of the content they will be exposed to could serve as a negative influence if they are losing the ability to distinguish between fiction and reality. While any reasonably good form of art should be able to immerse the user, be it book, music, film, or indeed game, it is ultimately up to the consumer to be able to reign themselves in again.
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PostSubject: Re: Controversy: Who really is to blame?   Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:06 am

Lmao O'Rly wrote:
Would this mean that the developer would have to take some measure of responsibility for offences caused, or should we for viewing and interacting with the content wheter they are Shooter, Platform or Erogue if the basis of the game is on the cover?
At least in the U.S., this is a tricky question to answer (its probably just as tricky in other countries, but since I'm not as familiar with the laws of places outside the U.S., I couldn't say one way or the other). Whether or not the contents of a videogame are a form of speech on the part of the publishers is an issue thats still up in the air, and there my be a hearing on it in the Supreme Court soon. Whatever decision they come to on that will have a huge effect on this issue. As to the second part of the question, the ablility of a person to make a statement through their purchasing power IS a form of speech, so legally no apology would ever need to be made (socially whether or not they'd have to is another issue entirely).
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PostSubject: Re: Controversy: Who really is to blame?   Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:17 am

Well isn't it kind of a matter of theme?

I mean the objectives of games like Call of Duty are save the world stop the bad guy and maybe do a slow motion backflip popping off your double Uzi's smoking a cigar with a kick ass bassline coming from nowhere.

But the objective of RapeLay, is to cause the misery of another human being through what has got to be one of the most psychologically and physically distressing acts that one human can inflict on another outside of a theatre of war.

Free speech comes with the small print of not directly seeking to cause harm to another.

A game where the sole objective is rape, has no artistic merit whatsoever.
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PostSubject: Re: Controversy: Who really is to blame?   Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:23 am

So therefore the defensive arguement is invalid.
Nice post lads. Very Nice indeed.

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You don't say much do you? :3" - vengeance7times

Quote :
"Tequila and i ee in love. She nevef gives me hangover. But she lujes tl bite me when o takr her straight. Liam... i shall savw tgis for you not gonna edit. Of i do tour sllowed to have xel comr salp me.
Fuxkjb touch screeb ketboards." - iRideAPalmer


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PostSubject: Re: Controversy: Who really is to blame?   Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:35 am

This just happened a couple of days ago...

A seriously crazy Counter-Strike player spent seven months tracking down a guy who stabbed him in the game, so he could stab him back in real life.

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Unstable people can find inspiration in anything. Before games, it was movies and music, before that, it was books.
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PostSubject: Re: Controversy: Who really is to blame?   Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:04 pm

See: Catcher In the Rye, and Mark David Chatman.
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PostSubject: Re: Controversy: Who really is to blame?   Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:09 pm

here a sad story
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PostSubject: Re: Controversy: Who really is to blame?   Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:22 pm

Just saying this but these few incidents are what drive some people to say that video games are destroying our children, come on there many more things than video games that are destroying our children, like drugs and alcohol.

Also, if you play a game that is only meant to rape someone then you need to go to Arkham Asylum! Also, I am a gamer and like normal people I want a successful life and a family, what can Glenn Beck say to that?!?!
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PostSubject: Re: Controversy: Who really is to blame?   Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:08 pm

Hoos wrote:
This just happened a couple of days ago...

A seriously crazy Counter-Strike player spent seven months tracking down a guy who stabbed him in the game, so he could stab him back in real life.

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Unstable people can find inspiration in anything. Before games, it was movies and music, before that, it was books.


posted that story in the news threads the other day

the last incident in the OP happened in my town. that kid went to a school near mine and i know people who knew him... i didnt think that story had gone much futher than provincial news pale
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PostSubject: Re: Controversy: Who really is to blame?   Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:13 pm

banded1 wrote:
Hoos wrote:
This just happened a couple of days ago...

A seriously crazy Counter-Strike player spent seven months tracking down a guy who stabbed him in the game, so he could stab him back in real life.

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Unstable people can find inspiration in anything. Before games, it was movies and music, before that, it was books.


posted that story in the news threads the other day

the last incident in the OP happened in my town. that kid went to a school near mine and i know people who knew him... i didnt think that story had gone much futher than provincial news pale

You knew him? Damn. What compels people to do this crap is not video games, but mental disorders, poor anger-management, booze, drugs... the ablitity to not understand this is a sign of fear for video games caused by lack of understanding. Don't ask me to clarify on this, this is as simple as I can put it really.
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SixHousePull
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PostSubject: Re: Controversy: Who really is to blame?   Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:40 pm

Great topic Liam.

I plused your first epic one Insom. Great points, well constructed.
Nice post!





* On December 27, 2004, 13-year-old Xiao Yi committed suicide by jumping from a twenty-four story building in Tianjin, China, as a result of the effects of his addiction, hoping to be "reunited" with his fellow gamers in the afterlife, according to his suicide notes. Prior to his death, he had spent 36 consecutive hours playing Warcraft III.

This is the one that bothers me.

Has anyone done any research into what the effects to a persons body are if they play this long? That's just not healthy, nor anything anyone has had to worry about until now in my 20+ years of video gaming. Ive been playing since the damn things were invented. There was no talk about this type of stuff waaaaaaaaaaaaay back when. Now I know the games have changed, but the concept hasnt. As long as there have been games there has been shooting and killing things in them. So where did the line blur?
In the better graphics? Stories? Development?

These other case, obviously these people just have a wire loose or something and my guess is, that wire would have been loose whether they played games or not.
My worry is, can the games loosen the wire like some claim? I just see that paragraph up there and go...what was happening in those final moments before Tianjin decided to toss themselves out the window. Were they even in control of themselves at that point? Mentally, emotional...everything.
Sad thing to me. That someone would end their own real life for something that is imaginary and play.


In any case, great thread, good discussion guys.
Nice.
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PostSubject: Re: Controversy: Who really is to blame?   Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:01 pm

SixHousePull wrote:
Great topic Liam.

I plused your first epic one Insom. Great points, well constructed.
Nice post!





* On December 27, 2004, 13-year-old Xiao Yi committed suicide by jumping from a twenty-four story building in Tianjin, China, as a result of the effects of his addiction, hoping to be "reunited" with his fellow gamers in the afterlife, according to his suicide notes. Prior to his death, he had spent 36 consecutive hours playing Warcraft III.

This is the one that bothers me.

Has anyone done any research into what the effects to a persons body are if they play this long? That's just not healthy, nor anything anyone has had to worry about until now in my 20+ years of video gaming. Ive been playing since the damn things were invented. There was no talk about this type of stuff waaaaaaaaaaaaay back when. Now I know the games have changed, but the concept hasnt. As long as there have been games there has been shooting and killing things in them. So where did the line blur?
In the better graphics? Stories? Development?

These other case, obviously these people just have a wire loose or something and my guess is, that wire would have been loose whether they played games or not.
My worry is, can the games loosen the wire like some claim? I just see that paragraph up there and go...what was happening in those final moments before Tianjin decided to toss themselves out the window. Were they even in control of themselves at that point? Mentally, emotional...everything.
Sad thing to me. That someone would end their own real life for something that is imaginary and play.


In any case, great thread, good discussion guys.
Nice.

I remember hearing somewhere he included in his suicide note that he wanted to join the heroes of the game he worshiped, that either says no social life or someone who is mentally insane, I think its both.

Fear is the driving force behind many things, for instance, people fear me because I have knowledge in something atypical, military strategy, how to make a bomb, etc. another example is what Sazh says in FFXIII, the people of Cocoon fear Pulse and thus are scared by it, people need to learn that video games are a way for people to relax/enjoy themselves, if you take the thing away you are overreacting, just limit the amount of time they spend on the thing and you are golden, I mean honestly 10 hours of Halo goes down to 0? Limit it to 1-2 hours of it a day and maybe increase it with good behavior/good grades, whatever you want to do.
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PostSubject: Re: Controversy: Who really is to blame?   Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:45 pm

SixHousePull wrote:
Great topic Liam.

I plused your first epic one Insom. Great points, well constructed.
Nice post!

* On December 27, 2004, 13-year-old Xiao Yi committed suicide by jumping from a twenty-four story building in Tianjin, China, as a result of the effects of his addiction, hoping to be "reunited" with his fellow gamers in the afterlife, according to his suicide notes. Prior to his death, he had spent 36 consecutive hours playing Warcraft III.

This is the one that bothers me.

Has anyone done any research into what the effects to a persons body are if they play this long?

heres an article you may want to read, six. it kinda follows your question

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PostSubject: Re: Controversy: Who really is to blame?   Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:08 pm

banded1 wrote:
SixHousePull wrote:
Great topic Liam.

I plused your first epic one Insom. Great points, well constructed.
Nice post!

* On December 27, 2004, 13-year-old Xiao Yi committed suicide by jumping from a twenty-four story building in Tianjin, China, as a result of the effects of his addiction, hoping to be "reunited" with his fellow gamers in the afterlife, according to his suicide notes. Prior to his death, he had spent 36 consecutive hours playing Warcraft III.

This is the one that bothers me.

Has anyone done any research into what the effects to a persons body are if they play this long?

heres an article you may want to read, six. it kinda follows your question

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um.....I am addicted to some video games but I don't skip meals, except maybe snackage, I don't skip school, its actually kind of fun, depending on the class of course, and I have enough money stockpiled from the past couple of years that I don't need to steal money from anyone to buy the games I want, I am among the few who can of course but seriously people some of these cases are isolated incidents that people are using to make their point without showing the whole story, I mean when was the last time you heard about a kid who played 10 hours of video games a week and got into a good school? I haven't even though kids like that do exist!
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SixHousePull
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PostSubject: Re: Controversy: Who really is to blame?   Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:29 pm

Close but these look like examples of bad parenting.
Dont get me wrong. Nate can throw a hissy when told to turn off the game.
But he does that when you tell him to get out of the pool.

Does anyone teach self discipline anymore?
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Insom
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PostSubject: Re: Controversy: Who really is to blame?   Fri Jun 04, 2010 7:34 am

Yeah I'v been taught self discipline, it's probably the reason my gaming could be seen as addictive, double XP on MW2 versus my friend's gf's 18th birthday, until he rang me to say they were at the bar I had significant amount of coffee and cigarettes to see me shooting til sunrise.

When I set a goal, I want to see it through instantly.

My record for consecutive gaming lies in the region of 24-26 hours, before my body actually shut itself down for my own safety.

Reality does get distorted somewhere around the 12 hour mark.

The fact that this poor young boy was so detached from reality he thought he could meet warcraft characters in the afterlife simply boggles the mind.

At the risk pf contradicting a point I made yesterday, where the hell where his parents? I know we all have to pay the bills but when your son is sitting on his ass for 36 consecutive hours, don't you think maybe it's time to go, "Hey, Tai, I got tickets to see Green Day down the street, one for you and one for that girl you were telling me about, here's some money to take her to McDonald's afterwards. Have fun Champ."

For all we know the girl could've been a mage from Afghanistan, point being the kid would have got out of the house to interact with someone real. Some of you may be going, "A girl he met through a video game? What a loser."

I met a girl through a video game, she remains my best friend despite the fact we have broken up, she was indeed from another country and had quite a signifcant age gap ahead of me. So what, point is, both of us had enough of a grasp on reality to know the difference between the real world and Warcraft (example, we met because of R:FoM).

As six has put it, children will react the same way no matter what you tell them it is time to finish doing, but for their own safety and so they grow up to be respectable people, they have to be shown where the line is.

I will always feel very strongly about the media reputation given to the gaming community, without the friends I've met online, about 20 or so names spring to mind, a high percentage of them being members here, I'd be up shit creek without a respawn.
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