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 BAMFS or jusr being Racist?

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BAMFS or Asshats
BAMFS
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Asshats
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Can't Decide
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banded1
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PostSubject: BAMFS or jusr being Racist?   Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:52 pm



watch the final story in this eposode of the PDS and let me know what you think. im pretty on the fence about it.

im leaning towards the freedom of speech argument. people poke fun at other religions (mainly Christianity) all the time and you dont see offices getting fire-bombed for it. and they werent painting a bad wrap on Muslim people in any way. all they did was have Prophet Mohammed listed as the "editor-in-chief"

whats your take nation-ites?
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rrwatch
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PostSubject: Re: BAMFS or jusr being Racist?   Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:29 am

While the magazine has the right to poke fun of Islam, you have to look at more than just one magazine conver for some insight on French-Islam relations. For example France outlawed the wearing of traditional Islamic women garb aka the burqua/burka last year. Never saw them outlaw nuns habits or any Christian garb so you have to wonder what is going on. Its seems there is gov't sanctioned predjudice going on. Do I agree with firebombing a magazine office in response to a cover ridiculing one religions most holy person... no. Still, there seems to be some underlying prejudice that is making Muslims angry and I can understand that anger.
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SixHousePull
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PostSubject: Re: BAMFS or jusr being Racist?   Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:50 am

Freedom of speech BUT:


I think the biggest mistake most make when it comes to the freedom of speech argument is the refusal to accept that fact that with "great power comes great responsibility". Just because you are free to speak your mind with certain rights and protections doesn't mean you have to. I dont know what the relations are between these 2 entities and tbh, I dont care. I do know that I have taught my kids "If you dont have anything nice to say, you probably shouldn't say what is left. And that if your words and actions are causing someone else grief, its time to remember that final age old adage, "Do unto others as you would have them do to you."

So to answer your, and I guess his question B, this is the most dangerous type of ass hole.
One with free speech.


I say both.
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Lod
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PostSubject: Re: BAMFS or jusr being Racist?   Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:54 am

People need to stop being so serious when it comes to religion. Thats all I know.

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banded1
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PostSubject: Re: BAMFS or jusr being Racist?   Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:04 pm

rrwatch wrote:
While the magazine has the right to poke fun of Islam, you have to look at more than just one magazine conver for some insight on French-Islam relations. For example France outlawed the wearing of traditional Islamic women garb aka the burqua/burka last year. Never saw them outlaw nuns habits or any Christian garb so you have to wonder what is going on. Its seems there is gov't sanctioned predjudice going on. Do I agree with firebombing a magazine office in response to a cover ridiculing one religions most holy person... no. Still, there seems to be some underlying prejudice that is making Muslims angry and I can understand that anger.

dont they still allow the hijab? which is the equivalent to what a nun wears? i might be mistaken but i though it was just the burqua. not saying i agree with issue of wearing a burqua . but you're kinda comparing two different things.
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rrwatch
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PostSubject: Re: BAMFS or jusr being Racist?   Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:26 pm

ont they still allow the hijab? which is the equivalent to what a nun wears? i might be mistaken but i though it was just the burqua. not saying i agree with issue of wearing a burqua . but you're kinda comparing two different things.

It is the equivalent to a Nuns head gear so of course it would be legal... couldn't be prosecuting Christians for wearing religious garb now could they ?? My point is not to compare the two garbs but to point out that one religion (Islam) has had their garb outlawed while the other (Catholics) hadn't. It seriously sounds like an attempt by gov't to stigmatize one religion. In America you can wear whatever you want but Islamic women must remove their veils for drivers license pictures. That makes sense to me from a security/identification standpoint.
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whatbearisbest
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PostSubject: Re: BAMFS or jusr being Racist?   Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:58 pm

What I don't understand is why Muslim women cover their hair but wear a TON of makeup.
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Seyel
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PostSubject: Re: BAMFS or jusr being Racist?   Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:38 pm

Jokes play on borders and limits. As long as they do not trespass the limits, we accept them. As such, once you change culture, geography, age or simply social group, those limits might change and the joke one funny becomes offensive. I think the risk of making fun of religion is that it is only funny or innocent when you are within your limits (usually your own religion or with people with your same views), you step out of it and you are offensive because you are being disrespectful to other people's viewings/feeling/beliefs. That's pretty much the same reason why members in specific groups (racial, sexual, etc) can call each other things that other people outside those groups cannot.

I would not make a joke about any other religion but mine because I think it offends people. I would not make a joke about any race but mine, any sexual orientation but mine, etc... I might think some borderline joke or even chuckle a bit when I hear them, then I feel some shame and embarrassment if I think it is offensive or it goes too far but I would not defend them as freedom of speech because I think sensibilities are sometimes before the freedom of speech. Everybody is still free to say as they please but everybody should be respectful and considerate with their neighbours, so that last one goes first. Otherwise, I might start swearing at every 5 year old kid just because of freedom of speech, and I might tell my boss all the things I think of him and his family, just because of freedom of speech, or I could shout throughout the night dirty stories over the window, just because freedom of speech... well, my point is that freedom of speech is shaped by other things, such as common sense, respect for others and ethical behaviour.

On the French law, I believe that it does not discriminate one side, it does not allow any kind of religious symbols in state schools, for example. So no crucifixes, no veils or nothing from whatever religion. That means no nun costume either at state schools.

On the need to cover their heads, not so long ago it was also part of christianity, specially when going to church, that women should cover their hair with a veil. My grandmother used to do it, so I am not talking about centuries ago but just a couple of generations. I think the bible said something about covering the hair but now I must admit I am not sure. For what I know, that covering is just for public and many (I haven't said all) have clothes at home I would not even dare to wear. I see many of them at the shops buying the same kind of clothes, they just do not wear them outside in public. Idk, I am torn on this, tbh. I do not think the current western society inspires good values as a whole, so I do not see my culture is a better alternative. I think all systems have their failings and weaknesses.

In any case, I think culture is culture (and religion is just a part of it), I do not like people coming to my house and telling me how I should do my stuff or what furniture I should have, so I do not like doing it to others.

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whatbearisbest
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PostSubject: Re: BAMFS or jusr being Racist?   Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:10 pm

well I've lived in Detroit for a good 15 or so years of my life and there are more muslim's in Dearborn than anywhere in the world besides the middle east (something like that). Anyway, I do know for a fact they dress exactly like americans in jeans and whatever else we wear, most of them wear more make up than any other women I know, yet they wear their headscarfs.

Nothing against covering your hair, I just don't see a point if they are trying to be "modest" by covering their hair, yet they wear normal clothes and tons of make up. And I'm not talking about 10-20% of the muslim women I've seen, its more like 75-90% do this.

With your grandma, I'm sure with her veil, she also wore a nice dress to church and minimal make up right?
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Seyel
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PostSubject: Re: BAMFS or jusr being Racist?   Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:44 pm

[Ok, I was going to a path I didn't want to walk, so I edited this post and took out much of its content]


"modesty" is a term that is linked to culture, what is "modest" here might not be "modest" in other culture and viceversa. It is a big deal in certain cultures for a woman to show their hair, because it is considered more private that maybe other parts of the body. And as such no matter how much make up they might have or how high their stilettos are, their culture considers the hair a more private part of the body.

I remember something it was said on TV here when the Royal Wedding about the wedding of the Queen Mother (I think) they said that it was not shown on TV under fears that people would see the ceremony with heads uncovered and that was an scandal. Yes, my grandmother used to wear a nice dress... but in her time dresses were tight as hell around the chest and so breasts were enhanced (although arms and chest were fully covered). She used make up though, bright red for the lips and dark mascara for the eyelashes. The (usually black) veil covered the head and the face whilst in church.


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rrwatch
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PostSubject: Re: BAMFS or jusr being Racist?   Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:59 pm

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On the French law, I believe that it does not discriminate one side, it does not allow any kind of religious symbols in state schools, for example. So no crucifixes, no veils or nothing from whatever religion. That means no nun costume either at state schools.

Ah but the rub is Nuns don't go to public schools, crosses can be worn under blouses or shirts. Many Muslims feel this was a specific attack on them more than anything else because while other religious symbols or dress can be hidden, the veils cannot. I tend to agree with them. I feel it was written as a draconian way to just say "F" you Islam. There are a lot of laws that promote some religious views over others in most countries also and I think they are all wrong. For example I can't go to the store and buy liquor or a car on Sunday in my state. Is Sunday any different than other days ? Not unless you belong to certain sects of Christianity that believe alcohol should not be drank, nor business conducted on the Sabbath day. Yet laws that promote that very religious view are enforced for everybody.
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whatbearisbest
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PostSubject: Re: BAMFS or jusr being Racist?   Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:55 pm

this country was founded on Christianity though.
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Lod
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PostSubject: Re: BAMFS or jusr being Racist?   Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:00 am

My Country was founded on Catholic belief. Catholics are fucking nuts. I should know I was raised one. Still trying to figure out how to get myself excommunicated.

Religion and Law will always cause some serious issues, just as it would if an atheist wrote the laws. Different cultures and rules and ways of life will always cause some friction. Different beliefs will always be looked down on by both sides cause both sides believe that they are better than the other. Just the way with beliefs.

When one side jokes about the other, that's when the craziness happens.

If I were to start joking on everything you believed in you would come to it's defence, it's a natural reaction cause we don't like to be told we're wrong, which is what a lot of people would see the joking of their beliefs as, an attack on them.

When you know someone through dialogue and they make a joke about your beliefs privately then you will laugh. When you don't know a person and it's said to the general public in a manner that would be satire or joking you are essentially talking to the mob. The mob is fucking nuts. You do not make fun of the mob unless the mob holds the same beliefs as you.

Humans as individuals are easy to joke with about anything, but get them into a group and make a joke the mob mentality takes over.

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You don't say much do you? :3" - vengeance7times

Quote :
"Tequila and i ee in love. She nevef gives me hangover. But she lujes tl bite me when o takr her straight. Liam... i shall savw tgis for you not gonna edit. Of i do tour sllowed to have xel comr salp me.
Fuxkjb touch screeb ketboards." - iRideAPalmer


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PostSubject: Re: BAMFS or jusr being Racist?   Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:09 am

Lod wrote:
Still trying to figure out how to get myself excommunicated.

Just knock out a priest. Worked for me anyway.

When my grandfather died the priest came around to my father's house where we were having the wake. Priest said, as my grandfather didn't need his car anymore would we give it to him. Just one punch and I'm never allowed in church again.

In my travels I have only seen harm come from taking religion too seriously. Murder is a mortal sin, but killing in the name of religion gets you virgins? scratch
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eattheword
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PostSubject: Re: BAMFS or jusr being Racist?   Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:34 am

Religion, unfortunately is not immune to people's tendency to like rules and regulations. What ought to be a relationship with the creator all too often turns into a stultifying set of rules. This is especially clear in the way Jesus related to the religious authorities of his day. Of course, a central point of his message has, once more, been turned into a codified set of rules by many, which is precisely what he was declaring freedom from. Just look at those crazy priests in Bethlehem yesterday knocking six bells out of each other with brooms in a turf war over who gets to clean what part of the Church of the Nativity. And while they fight it out, this 1700 year old church crumbles because they won't agree who should pay for the repairs. It is interesting to note that the word 'religion' comes from the Latin 'ligāre' meaning to tie or bind. Whilst in its purest form this should denote a binding closer to God, it usually ends up being a binding up with stupid rules. Religion drives me nuts. I'm so glad God set us free from that.
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SixHousePull
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PostSubject: Re: BAMFS or jusr being Racist?   Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:07 am

The thing I have always found funny about religions is how they do all have one thing they agree upon. That with in itself should be the one thing that allows them to get past the differences.
And yet, they take the differences and focus attention on those for what appears to me anyway as being just a way to prove that they have stronger faith. I guess that is a rather general statement, as I know at the individual level the commitment and practice varies.


But when there is a common ground, why focus on the uncommons? Especially when the one common is telling you to accept each others differences as people. Rolling Eyes
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eattheword
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PostSubject: Re: BAMFS or jusr being Racist?   Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:22 am

Well, if you're just talking about rule-based religion then I'd agree with you. But when it comes to what Jesus came to offer then I cannot agree with your view because the difference he announced is just incompatible with any rule-based belief system.
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SixHousePull
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PostSubject: Re: BAMFS or jusr being Racist?   Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:03 am

Yes, I see what you mean.

But really, all of it comes down to belief and that's why I feel all religion, even Christianity has themselves trying to prove their belief is the one to put your faith into. Ultimately, they all ask you to put complete trust in unproven doctrines. But of all of those doctrines, the "Christianity" Jesus taught seems to allow more room for the acceptance of the others.

But its still just belief.





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PostSubject: Re: BAMFS or jusr being Racist?   Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:49 am

Which brings me back to my point that religion is fine, as long as you don't take it too seriously.

My head gets stuck on the bit where this all powerful, all forgiving entity allows atrocities to be committed in his name. I know all the arguments about free will etc., but if my two dogs are fighting over who gets petted first I split them up, send them to their beds and let things calm down. I don't let them rip each other apart and fuss the winner.

So, while I want to think there is some deeper purpose to my life than just biology - for now I can't.

All that being said, and trying to get back on topic, I envy those who have the comfort of belief - whatever shape that takes for them - and think the world would be a better place if we accepted people as they are, rather than force them to adapt to our 'norm'. Attempts at humour are often misguided and lead to confusion and misunderstanding rather than acceptance of the topic and we all know that it is natural to fear the unknown. So rather than demonise or trivialise, make the effort to get to know the truth about what scares you.
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SixHousePull
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PostSubject: Re: BAMFS or jusr being Racist?   Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:40 pm

Good post. I plussed it.

I know its off topic of the OP, but I agree with you on one point. The biggest problem I have always had in accepting a God is in this description. Maybe I'm looking at things wrong.

To me it seems no different than taking my first born child, finding the darkest, most dangerous evil filled forest somewhere on a far off distant island, and leaving them there with a note that says:


I left a thousand different clues that can be interpreted a million different ways with instructions on how you should live your life, and how to find me.
If you love me at all, you will try.



Is that something a father would do?


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PostSubject: Re: BAMFS or jusr being Racist?   Fri Dec 30, 2011 5:26 pm

Six wrote:
Good post. I plussed it.

I know its off topic of the OP, but I agree with you on one point. The biggest problem I have always had in accepting a God is in this description. Maybe I'm looking at things wrong.

To me it seems no different than taking my first born child, finding the darkest, most dangerous evil filled forest somewhere on a far off distant island, and leaving them there with a note that says:


I left a thousand different clues that can be interpreted a million different ways with instructions on how you should live your life, and how to find me.
If you love me at all, you will try.



Is that something a father would do?



As long as there are lots of kindly apes or wolves to raise them everything should be ok !
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Lod
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PostSubject: Re: BAMFS or jusr being Racist?   Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:54 pm

I'm taking that and using it as a way for any future kids to prove their love. Discuss it with Lisa first.

__________________________

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Listen to Liam. He makes sense. - Rxforwar

Quote :
"I agree with all Liam has said so far" - Seyel

Quote :
"Sorry Cel I agree with everything Liam has said so far." - Rrwatch

Quote :
"You know what I was going to do? Make a thread on here called: "Lod, the man of few words."
You don't say much do you? :3" - vengeance7times

Quote :
"Tequila and i ee in love. She nevef gives me hangover. But she lujes tl bite me when o takr her straight. Liam... i shall savw tgis for you not gonna edit. Of i do tour sllowed to have xel comr salp me.
Fuxkjb touch screeb ketboards." - iRideAPalmer


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SixHousePull
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PostSubject: Re: BAMFS or jusr being Racist?   Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:02 pm

Well, I know its a very jaded outlook. And really, Im only posting now to make anyone aware Im not out to attack their belief. Just explaining my own.

I stick to agnosticism. Because the truth is if we were to take belief out of the equation, and there just IS, than suddenly anything and everything we think is out the window. I strongly do feel that if there is a God, our feeble little human minds wouldn't even be able to begin to start processing any of it. Everything we as humans can experience in these mortal shells is only one millionth of what the real world is actually made of. So it doesnt matter what created it really. We will never be able to comprehend any more than we can see touch taste hear and feel.

Belief is all we will ever have.
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PostSubject: Re: BAMFS or jusr being Racist?   Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:32 pm

I always figure that religion may help people.... so I live and let live. My own personal beliefs do not have to be the only valid ones. I only hope that America can still be the country where people can practice whatever beliefs they want. I've been noticing a trend where Christianity is being used by politicans as a litmus test to gauge their patriotism.Some lawmakers are trying to legislate their religious beliefs into laws.... in a way that violates our traditions of religious freedom.
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SixHousePull
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PostSubject: Re: BAMFS or jusr being Racist?   Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:45 pm

rrwatch wrote:
I always figure that religion may help people.... so I live and let live. My own personal beliefs do not have to be the only valid ones. I only hope that America can still be the country where people can practice whatever beliefs they want. I've been noticing a trend where Christianity is being used by politicans as a litmus test to gauge their patriotism.Some lawmakers are trying to legislate their religious beliefs into laws.... in a way that violates our traditions of religious freedom.


And that's what just drives me nuts. I don't really care what people believe. They are entitled to it just as the next guy. Its not what they believe I find myself questioning. Its what they do with unproven faith. It has been the cause of more human lives than anything, and at its core, religion is just a belief. Its not like anyone has come out with irrefutable proof that there was a creator. Now there are sides. Now there is a good and evil and a right and wrong based on that creators wishes.
To go back to how I started this, the one common among all religion is God is love. He wants to love. He wants to be loved, and more importantly he would prefer it if we treat each other in ways that reflect that. So why should I care WHY any of them believe that? I would much rather SEE them showing they understand that.

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