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 The God Particle vs The God Delusion

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Meathead2004
Second Nation
Meathead2004

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PostSubject: The God Particle vs The God Delusion   The God Particle vs The God Delusion Icon_minitimeSat May 09, 2009 9:36 am

After reading Dan Brown's Angels and Demons (A&D) a month or so ago, I was drawn to books that make the argument either for or against intelligent design. The character that is murdered in the opening of A&D, Leo Vetra, is a physicist who has successfully recreated a Big Bang scenario at CERN (which is an actual lab in Geneva, and they are currently working on achieving a Big Bang event themselves). Through his findings, he comes to the realization that in order for matter (you, I, and everything else) to have sprung to life from nothingness, there had to be a presence of some type of high energy. He compares this energy to a god, and makes the argument that religion and science are searching for/ the same thing...God. The book mentions Petra's book collection, one of which is The God Particle. I just grabbed this a couple days ago, and from my understanding attempts to make the same argument as Leo Vetra, proving God through science. While I was there, I also snatched up Dawkin's The God Delusion, which is an attempt to disprove God. I'm starting with the latter, and I'm just barely into the first chapter. My goal in the end, is to have the knowledge to make better arguments on subject. Not sure if any of you have come across these books or not, if so, let's hear your thoughts. And please suggest other books on the subject, if you've run across any. This has always been an interesting topic for me, and I can't wait to see both sides of the argument.
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Meathead2004
Second Nation
Meathead2004

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PostSubject: Re: The God Particle vs The God Delusion   The God Particle vs The God Delusion Icon_minitimeMon May 18, 2009 7:54 am

lulz

Turns out that The God Particle was just a play on words, no monumental proofs for design here. But I'm also hearing about Glynn's God: The Evidence, which is an attempt to meld design and science. Dawkins has made some interesting points thus far and I'm ready to jump into some rebuttal text.
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Meathead2004
Second Nation
Meathead2004

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PostSubject: Re: The God Particle vs The God Delusion   The God Particle vs The God Delusion Icon_minitimeThu May 21, 2009 11:59 am

Still muddling through. I'm beginning to think that no one knows the answer of how we got here... Sad Blast. Either way, I'm enjoying seeing things from both sides. And I've come to realize now that I have a huge craving for science and physics. Picked up Hawking's A Brief History of Time, can't wait to jump in there next. This obsession with books is taking hold of me, maybe I should play some Resistance to ease my addiction...how ironic.
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Rxforwar
Seventh Nation
Rxforwar

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PostSubject: Re: The God Particle vs The God Delusion   The God Particle vs The God Delusion Icon_minitimeThu May 21, 2009 12:54 pm

I read A Brief History what seems like an eon ago, and have reread it subsequently. He has completely revised a bit of his thinking since then, so you might want to read up on some of his subsequent writings when you get through it.

The read is a bit like hacking your way through a dense rainforest. With wooden soup spoon. Swinging it with your foot. That said, very interesting.


It seems you'll find what you're looking for, as most people do. I do, however, marvel at what people will imagine to explain that which they don't understand.
Though as I've repeatedly said, it is my sincere hope that I'm wrong. Very Happy= :D
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Meathead2004
Second Nation
Meathead2004

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PostSubject: Re: The God Particle vs The God Delusion   The God Particle vs The God Delusion Icon_minitimeThu May 21, 2009 2:05 pm

Yep, I saw his follow up A Briefer History of Time when I was in B&N, I believe its updated with more recent evidence and written so that its more easily understood. Didn't grab it but once I'm done with the first I plan to snag it along with a few of his other writings, brilliant man to say the least. I might grab Weinberg after that. if you've got anymore suggestions on other physics/theory books Rx, shout em out.
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eattheword
Dark Lord of the Sixth
Dark Lord of the Sixth
eattheword

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PostSubject: Re: The God Particle vs The God Delusion   The God Particle vs The God Delusion Icon_minitimeMon May 25, 2009 8:05 am

If you want a thoughtful exposition putting forward the arguments against macro evolution see John Lennox's book God's Undertaker: Has Science Buried God? It's only a couple of hundred pages but it's well written and Lennox makes clear the fundamental issues he has with the idea of evolution as a theory for the emergence of life and the differentiation of the species. Lennox is not a fundamentalist preacher but a senior Mathematics academic at Oxford University (the same university that is home to Richard Dawkins).

BTW, Meat, with all the confusion of you being Meathead, then Bannay, and back again, I think I removed you from my PSN list. Can you resend me an invite from the PSN account you now use? Thanks.
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Meathead2004
Second Nation
Meathead2004

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PostSubject: Re: The God Particle vs The God Delusion   The God Particle vs The God Delusion Icon_minitimeMon May 25, 2009 10:44 am

There's actually a debate between Dawkin's and Lennox on youtube. Lengthy though (10 parts). Listening to it now.
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Meathead2004
Second Nation
Meathead2004

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PostSubject: Re: The God Particle vs The God Delusion   The God Particle vs The God Delusion Icon_minitimeMon May 25, 2009 5:33 pm

Follow up. Very good debate. Again, lengthy but very much worth a listen. Both Dawkins and Lennox make very good points. To my surprise, I think Lennox actually came out on top. Of course, Lennox has the last word on most topics but he still is pretty convincing on many points. If this type of argument interests you at all, this is not something you need to miss.

Here's part 1:

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Meathead2004
Second Nation
Meathead2004

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PostSubject: Re: The God Particle vs The God Delusion   The God Particle vs The God Delusion Icon_minitimeWed May 27, 2009 11:59 am

General relativity. Special relativity. Space. Time. Space-time. Quantum mechanics.

My brain is teh melted. :@:
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Dolemitesooner
Fifth Nation
Dolemitesooner

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PostSubject: Re: The God Particle vs The God Delusion   The God Particle vs The God Delusion Icon_minitimeSat May 30, 2009 9:02 am

If you liked Dan Brown's book Meat. I am reading Greg Isle - Footprints of God

It a thriller that is very similar to the Dan brown books.

Check it out for some thought provoking fiction
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eattheword
Dark Lord of the Sixth
Dark Lord of the Sixth
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PostSubject: Re: The God Particle vs The God Delusion   The God Particle vs The God Delusion Icon_minitimeSat May 30, 2009 9:04 am

The only thoughts Dan Brown provoked in me were "how can someone write so badly and have such contempt for his readers and still breathe?" Shocked Shocked

Very Happy= :D Very Happy= :D Very Happy= :D
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Dolemitesooner
Fifth Nation
Dolemitesooner

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PostSubject: Re: The God Particle vs The God Delusion   The God Particle vs The God Delusion Icon_minitimeSat May 30, 2009 9:51 am

I have read all of his books and I thought they were good.
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Meathead2004
Second Nation
Meathead2004

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PostSubject: Re: The God Particle vs The God Delusion   The God Particle vs The God Delusion Icon_minitimeSat May 30, 2009 2:06 pm

Great writer? No. Entertaining? I thought so, even if a lot of his supposed "facts" are hogwash, which they are.

I've read a few books now that divide his facts and fantasy. It goes without saying that most fall under the latter. But of course, you can't expect to much truth in fiction, right?

I may check it out Dole. Currently wading my way through the Lord of the Rings, never read them as a child and I always told myself that I would read all three before becoming worm feed.
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Dolemitesooner
Fifth Nation
Dolemitesooner

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PostSubject: Re: The God Particle vs The God Delusion   The God Particle vs The God Delusion Icon_minitimeSat May 30, 2009 7:42 pm

Bannay wrote:
Great writer? No. Entertaining? I thought so, even if a lot of his supposed "facts" are hogwash, which they are.

I've read a few books now that divide his facts and fantasy. It goes without saying that most fall under the latter. But of course, you can't expect to much truth in fiction, right?

I may check it out Dole. Currently wading my way through the Lord of the Rings, never read them as a child and I always told myself that I would read all three before becoming worm feed.
Yeah do that and tell me what you think. He is a entertaining author I think.


As for the whole Dan Brown thing. I have heard many a super genius say the say things ETW has. I am no super genius. I am a bit of an under educated peon compared to ETW, and I am also Dyslexic. Some people like myself are not blessed with the BIG BRAIN. lol Smile The book is easy to read and simple, but I found it very fast paced and easy to read, and that's why I enjoyed it. I think is also sold 40 bagillion copies so he is doing something right to entertain the mass of dullards that infest the earth like myself. LOL
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eattheword
Dark Lord of the Sixth
Dark Lord of the Sixth
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PostSubject: Re: The God Particle vs The God Delusion   The God Particle vs The God Delusion Icon_minitimeSun May 31, 2009 4:12 am

I'm not denying Brown's books were entertaining; I quite enjoyed Angels and Demons (even his science was mostly correct in that, only it would take CERN about 1,000,000,000 to produce 1/8 of a gram of antimatter). No, what really pi$$ed me off was the way in DaVinci Code that he presented as facts things that were made up. I'm not referring to the bloodline of Jesus here -- that is probably fake according to most scholars but it's clear where he got this idea from --, not I'm referring to things he has made up for dramatic effect whilst implying they are researched facts. I cannot remember the details now, but at the start of the book he said something like "everything in this book is true". Now, I've got no problem with people writing historical novels and making up new events/changing real events to better suit the narrative as long as they tell the reader what they've done. Bernard Cornwell is a good example. He writes a lot historic novels but at the end of the book he tells you which events are real (i.e. conform to the general historical consensus) and which events he has made up and which events he has changed (e.g. moved a real battle to a different date). This way you become confident that (allowing for some literary licence) his stories are based around real history except where he has explicitly stated them not to be.

Dan Brown didn't do this. Dan Brown tried to pass off fictitious inventions as fact. That's what annoyed me so much. I ended up having to continually check his 'facts' as a I read so that I could separate fact from fiction. Why is this important? After all, I wouldn't do this with one of Clive Cussler's Dirk Pitt novels. It's important because in DaVinci Brown was trying to convince us of the truth of his central plot idea. Cussler never pretended that Dirk Pitt was real.
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Meathead2004
Second Nation
Meathead2004

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PostSubject: Re: The God Particle vs The God Delusion   The God Particle vs The God Delusion Icon_minitimeSun May 31, 2009 10:04 am

Oh yeah. I've researched a lot of "facts" in the Da Vinci code. He does tend to stretch the truth a great deal to suit his plot. Which causes more harm than good because I'm sure there are numerous readers out there that will take an author for his word and never give it a second thought.

Did you know they are making the argument now that Da Vinci was responsible for the shroud of Turin? Apparently he had some device that allowed him to photograph images (negative images) onto cloth that had been soaked in sulfur (I believe it was sulfur anyway). I remain skeptic. For one, why have they found no other cloths with negative images? He would have had to practice would he not? And two, they still haven't got the carbon dating right, so the shroud could be much older than they have predicted. Which doesn't rule him out per say, but neither does it make the alternative any less probable.

What are they going to blame Da Vinci for next? Maybe he helped Al Gore invent the internet? I'm sure he had the ability to travel in time right? Thinking
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SixHousePull
Dark Lord of the Sixth
Dark Lord of the Sixth
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PostSubject: Re: The God Particle vs The God Delusion   The God Particle vs The God Delusion Icon_minitimeSun May 31, 2009 10:37 am

Yes.
That was his third invention.

He made a time machine out of a DeLorean
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Lod
Dark Lord of the Sixth
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PostSubject: Re: The God Particle vs The God Delusion   The God Particle vs The God Delusion Icon_minitimeTue Jun 02, 2009 4:47 am

The only thing I have to say in regards to this topic is
1: I only like the Da Vinci Code and half of Angels and Demons.
2: Didn't like the others and they also felt the in a way that they became predictable.

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