Don't you go to ground, you nerdy bunny. I'll find you with my rank 44 Search skill. That's right, I am a nerd and a table top RPG player. I've played D&D, Shadowrun, Earthdawn, Aberrant, etc. If anyone has interest in swapping stories with an old dice rattler I'll be happy to accommodate you in another thread. I'm sure we all have some real gems to relate.

If you were a dice chucker first and a VG zombie second, I can easily see why you would have trouble accepting FF or the like as an RPG. FF doesn't generally let you choose your skills or abilities(exceptions are FFV, FF Tactics, FFXII), true. It doesn't often give you multiple ways to complete an objective. And only rarely will it let you choose exactly what you get to say in a given situation. These are all things that would make a table topper cringe. But there are still things to consider before you recoil in horror.
Look at the combat system of a traditional video game RPG. Typically, the characters and enemies have a Speed stat which determines the order in which that person/thing acts. (read as, rolls initiative.) Same thing with Strength/Agility (Strength/Dexterity) for physical damage and accuracy, Magic/Intelligence (Intelligence/Wisdom) for magical damage and accuracy, etc. All taken right from the Dungeon Master's guide. [Fun fact time! Did you know the very first Final Fantasy game used battle and character systems similar to the D&D basic system? Selectable character classes, Spell levels, spells per day, and even prestige classes. And good lord, was it unforgiving at times. Like a particularly fussy DM...]
You stated that several things were absent from console RPGs that keep them from qualifying for the term. "choice of roles, customization of attributes, selection of weapon/armor combinations, choice dependent outcome or random outcomes". I respectfully disagree.
1. Stat customization is possible, though in a fairly limited form. It usually requires you to seek out certain items or equipments to enhance a specific stat. (Tome of Wisdom or Gauntlets of Ogre Power, anyone?)
2. Selection of weapon and armor combinations is the key to success in many a situation. For example, it is inadvisable to hit Ifrit with a Flameblade while wearing an Ice Bracer.
3. Choice dependent outcomes are not as rare as you might think. Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross are prime examples of this. What you do, where you go, when you choose to fight the last Boss, and even how you go about it are all factors in determining the result of the game. Don't want to save the imprisoned girl even though you have the tools to do so? Well, then let her rot. Or put her out of your misery. Alternate endings abound based on your decisions.
4. I'm assuming that by "choice of roles" you mean things like class selection. Now, you'll have to bear with me on this one because if you don't already think in these terms like I do, then it's going to be a bit of a stretch. I won't ask you to change your mind about this, but I will ask that you try to see things in this light for a minute. Analogy works best for me when trying to explain things, I think, so I'll go with one of those.
Let's say you're playing D&D and you want to make a character. First up you know you want one that can heal. OK. So Cleric it is. You turn over to the cleric page and see that just because you are a healer doesn't exclude you from doing combat damage or wearing some good armor to soak up the enemy attacks. Alright, so you pick a deity to worship that lets you wear some plate mail. But even though you can take a hit or two, you don't want to get too close for comfort, so you pick a sling as your weapon. Alright, now to assign your attribute points to fit the character accordingly so you five yourself high Constitution, Wisdom, and Dexterity. Now all you need is a name. How about CloudAriesVincent?
What I'm trying to say is that I view not the individual characters as your avatars, but the party you choose as a whole. It's acting as a single unit to let you interact with the world. In my example, each character personifies an aspect of the Cleric class, thus when you use this party configuration, your party pretty much is a Cleric. But this too is changeable. If you take out Aries and put in Cid, viola! With no way to heal yourself without items, and now with a much larger chunk of HP and Damage to throw about, you have become a Fighter.
But even without my sideways view of things there is still the mater of Materia. Though that is specific to FF7, it does help prove my point, I think. If you load someone down with a ton of a specific type of materia, let's say magic based ones, you can turn even Cloud into a Mage type character. He'll have the accompanying low HP and high magical damage/resistances.

The only thing you said that I can't really argue is the "social interaction" aspect. Most of what we consider RPGs are on pre-internet consoles. Other than playing in tandem with a friend and taking turns, there really isn't much they could really have in that regard. And as most people have varied ways of playing games, trying to pair up on a 1 player game just doesn't strike me as a good idea most of the time. Still, I believe they made a good call when they decided to label the FFs as Role Playing Games.

Conversely, I have a bit of trouble identifying Oblivion or Fallout as RPGs. Mostly because the story is so...downplayed, I guess is the word I'm looking for. I mean, the quest to save the world is given as much importance as the quest to get thirty bottles of soda that make your pee glow. Another one of my big qualifiers is the role your characters play in the unfolding of the story.

But these are just my views. Feel free to disagree. Respectfully or otherwise. I'm prepared for debate.

Wow, and I thought I was a geek.

OMG!
I guess this shows how busy this forum and myself have gotten.
I didnt even know this thread existed.
I only read the OP but well done Monkey. I'll have to sit and read through this thing after work today.

Me, I used to love RPGs. I just dont have the time for them anymore.
FF7 was the one that made me see how much time I lost to them. I looked and saw well over 100 hours play time as was like.... I just spent close to a full weeks worth of time on just this one game.

Oh that game was so worth it though.

*rides off on Chocobo*

I wasted so much time on those Chocobo races ...

CM, see your points but I'm still waiting for that Perfect combination ...

I've always been disappointed in the RPG categories, FPOV or TPPOV drives me nuts ... I want to feel immersed in the game not like a casual observer and POV has killed multiple games for me (though I did play the crap out of Diablo) ...

IF you know of a TT style RPG ... let me know

Purist Bunny

eattheword wrote:

Wow, and I thought I was a geek.

Don't worry, you are!

redhamuSLA wrote:

I've never finished an RPG. The closest I've ever gotten was FFVII. I got to the crater where, before the final showdown against Sephiroth & just stopped playing. I don't know why. (>_<)

LOL

you shouldve.

my save file was awesome! 80+ hours played, 2 golden chocobos, 2 sets of the Ultimate Summon materia(the one that you can call any summon), level 99's on some main characters i used and i managed to defeat all the Weapons! im a geek i know lol

does anyone have Cross Edge!? im currently hooked on that at the moment, heh

To each his own, my good red-stained rodent. And I will keep an eye out because I think something like a TT style RPG would be excellent. I about fell out of my chair when you said Diablo (which I, too, played extensively) was an RPG! I looked it up and darned if you weren't right. I guess maybe the whole turn based thing is just too deeply ingrained in my definition. Heh, maybe we both need to broaden are definition a little.

Alucard, seems you want to have a "power cord" measuring contest. Alright. I'll get the ruler.

FFVII- 90 hours, 2 rank S golden chocobos, 3 sets of Master Materia (that's Master Summon, Master Magic, and Master Command.), 3 fully completed Enemy Skill Materia, everyone's level 4 limit break including Aries, everyone's ultimate weapon, I believe I had full sets of weapons and armor (just because I got so much gil from mastering the 'All' materia while getting the others), Cloud, Tifa, and Vincent at level 99 with the others in the 70s, Cloud with 255 Strength, defeated all Weapons, completed all mini games and side quests.
HA HA HA! Behold my completionist glory! Or obsession It might also be that.

Diablo? Who has mentioned Diablo? Where? xD
I am looking forward to that game...

I'm looking forward to Diablo as well, but I'm not one of you RPG nerds.
Unless by RPG, you mean rocket propelled grenades.
In which case yes, I'm a 40 whore.
But that's off topic.
So I won't mention it.
Again.

Rxforwar wrote:

I'm looking forward to Diablo as well, but I'm not one of you RPG nerds.

No, just a NerD ...

Yeah, it does look pretty nice from what I've seen. Though that's mostly just a preview in the Game Informer. I loved the original Diablo. I liked Diablo 2 quite a bit. It sucks that like as not I won't get to play this one. I'm a clerk so the cash doesn't exactly roll my way. Well, it sort of does; I handle thousands of dollars a day. I just don't get to keep them. My PC is a hand me down from a friend of mine. It's kinda old. In fact D2 or Baldur's Gate 2 seems to be about it's limit. I really wish I had the knowledge and finances to improve this one myself. Ever try playing Diablo on the PS one? I prefer a controller to a keyboard, but the load times were excruciatingly long. Not as long as W-Summoning Knights of the Round or even Eden, but still quite long. For the not as big a nerds out there that's, not long enough to make a sandwich, but still long enough to get a glass of water. Anyhoo, I'm sure just looking up the system requirements of D3 would make this poor thing explode.

CobaltMonkey wrote:

To each his own, my good red-stained rodent. And I will keep an eye out because I think something like a TT style RPG would be excellent. I about fell out of my chair when you said Diablo (which I, too, played extensively) was an RPG! I looked it up and darned if you weren't right. I guess maybe the whole turn based thing is just too deeply ingrained in my definition. Heh, maybe we both need to broaden are definition a little.

Alucard, seems you want to have a "power cord" measuring contest. Alright. I'll get the ruler.

FFVII- 90 hours, 2 rank S golden chocobos, 3 sets of Master Materia (that's Master Summon, Master Magic, and Master Command.), 3 fully completed Enemy Skill Materia, everyone's level 4 limit break including Aries, everyone's ultimate weapon, I believe I had full sets of weapons and armor (just because I got so much gil from mastering the 'All' materia while getting the others), Cloud, Tifa, and Vincent at level 99 with the others in the 70s, Cloud with 255 Strength, defeated all Weapons, completed all mini games and side quests.
HA HA HA! Behold my completionist glory! Or obsession It might also be that.

i bow to your greatness it is most epic! lol
i never got Aerith/Aries to a high level.....though

Didn't mean to mislead, but neither did I. She was around level 30 by the Temple of the Ancients. Limit Breaks are given based on how many enemies you kill and how often you use the ones you have in that game. So you don't need to be high level, just kill a bunch of low level stuff. Oh, but you still need the manuals for the level 4s.

I got first hooked on RPG's back when I was in grade 6. I rented Lufia and the Fortress of Doom for the SNES. The soundtrack and the story just grabbed me. The battle system, while simple, was easy to pick up. My next RPG experience solidified my RPG fan-ness. I had a friend let me borrow his copy of Final Fantasy II(US). And that was it. FF II was the definitive RPG that hooked me. Like mentioned in another thread here, I have every copy of this game - SNES cart, PSX Disc, GBA Cart and DS cart. This set me up for the greatness of FF III(US).

At this point Chrono Trigger came out as did Lufia II: Rise Of The Sinistrals. And then I continued to ravage every FF that came out.

I honestly don't go after many RPG's any more than aren't FF. I just have too many interest in other games and not enough time/money. But the games that have helped me pass the years will always be remembered and cherished.

eattheword wrote:

mossy_oak01 wrote:

Anyone ever play Overloard: Raising Hell. My wife ordered this for my for fathers day. I'll be giving it a whirl next weekend.

It's a funny game. Any game that has 'minions' in it is, by definition, funny. You'll enjoy it.

Good to know. I messed with the demo a bit and found it rather funny. I figure you can't go wrong pillaging and plundering.

So. I think I'll re-ask a question I put into my OP.

Silent Protagonists in RPGs. How do you all feel about them?

For me, I really don't like them. A game that has one won't keep me from playing it if it looks fun (Chrono Trigger/Cross), but I won't enjoy it as much. I think a silent protagonist keeps me from really getting behind the character, and makes many places in the story where the character really needs to talk quite silly.
This really isn't a question solely for RPGs, I guess, but I think it matters more in such a story driven genre.
Penny for your thoughts.

I agree with you. If the game is solid and catches my attention, I'll enjoy, silent protagonist or not. Chrono and SMB RPG are good examples.

Super Mario RPG. Just recently got my own copy of that from the pawn shop, of all places. I'd rented it before, but had to move before I'd finished it. When I got to finish it I was like !
I find myself less attracted to games that have SPs usually, though ones with a series already established I'm fine with.
Mario and Link sort of get grandfathered in. Others like Half-Life or Oblivion are OK, but really have a hard time earning my respect.
The Persona games are another good example, I think, of an SP negatively impacting my enjoyment of the game (though I still do like them for their RPG classicness, and because I've not played anything else like them). Here are games that focus on social interaction with NPCs, yet there you are, a blank slate. All the social appeal of a cantaloupe. Though you do get to choose how your character reacts to people and situations, when everyone around you has multiple lines and even voice actors, it just feels silly when all your guy does is stare at them. Especially when they're talking about end of the world type stuff. That should provoke a response, in my opinion.

Alrighty folks, new topic. (though old topics are still discussable)

Random Encounters.
Love 'em or hate 'em?

Its a love hate relationship really.
I like how your pretty much forced to go into battle and earn some exp. whereas if you can see em, you can avoid em.

It really depends on how often these random encounters take place. I have played games where you can't take more than a couple of steps without getting into a random battle and it's especially frustrating if you are right in the middle of a difficult puzzle. However, I'm one of those power levelers you hear so much about so the random encounter is a good thing most of the time.

You guys are funny. Whenever I feel the need for a nap I just pop into this thread.

You know we have cots over there in the corner, right? You don't have to sleep in the middle of the floor. I bet you'd even get less kicking. Try it and see.

I like random encounters, for the most part. But, yeah the rate certainly does make a difference. Shin Megami Tensei III: Nocturne. This game has the absolute most random encounter rate ever. Seriously. I once walked through an area without a single fight, went to the next area, died and had to reload. On my return trip, I had fights literally every second step. Good Lord! I am so glad that one was a rental.
I also like RPGs like Chrono Cross, Mario RPG, Persona, etc. that let you see the enemy before you actually fight it. I've always thought this was a nice way to do it.
Really, the deciding factor for me is whether or not you can run away from a fight. Sometimes, you just don't feel like fighting. Wild Arms 5 took an interesting approach. Random encounters, but if you beat a certain mini boss within each level you can turn the encounters on and off at will. Needless to say, I always made a bee line for the little orb thing the boss stayed in. Oh, and they also had larger ones for each region of the world map, too. Nice touch.

CobaltMonkey wrote:

I like random encounters, for the most part.

Then just wear a mankini to a gay bar.